Loathe as I may be to link ANN, it's necessary if you want to understand what the fuck I am talking about. So there we go. If you don't want to read anymore about the Kodomo no Jikan issues, then piss off and go wank while I discuss issues of great import. It's my site, fuckers. Anyway, DeAngelis is trying to justify his purpose in dropping Kodomo no Jikan now that he's pissed off so many people. I'll be commenting on… large chunks of his article. (Also, tl;dr incoming.) (Also, the other rant jigger is here.)
But this time I sat down and read the series carefully in Japanese, and what I found in volumes two and three were very disturbing.
And you say you lived in Japan for six years? What the fuck were you doing in Japan for six years that ANYTHING in Kodomo no Jikan is disturbing? Mission work? I mean, of course I'd except an Amerimanga creating shitcan to not really "get it." But, hey, God bless America. Land of the free… until you upset someone. Then Capitalism takes over and free expression goes out the window.
So, my primary reason for canceling Nymphet is due to my recent realization that later volumes in the series can not be considered appropriate for the US market by any reasonable standard.
I seriously can't be the only one that finds it ironic that this sort of thing is being said while there is a review for dubbed hentai sitting at the bottom of ANN's sidebar. Seriously, man. Pick up a copy of Yubisaki Milk Tea. I know I keep coming back to it, but check out the cajones on TOKYOPOP. Or how about Battle Club, Shiozaki Yuji's MAGNUM OPUS (to me). Those two books are one of the few reasons I buy TOKYOPOP despite their transgressions.
But let's be serious for a second about how this title got licensed. Some ACTUAL manga fan recommended it at some meeting you guys were having. Being the dick stroking togetherness club that I know you try to run, you said KEEN IDEA IT IS SO MOE OTAKU BAKA LOLOLOL and then you licensed it and went back to writing your hack stories with their shit art. Later on, you actually picked up the series while stroking the latest copy of Serenity, hoping to CAPTURE THAT RAINBOW, and the holy spirit came down and slapped you for touching naughty books. I mean, this is how I figure it went.
…as a fan, I understand your frustration.
Ok, ok, really quickly here. The last time I checked, fans didn't make cheap knock offs of products they loved… except Sader. Sader is a work of love and purity. Beyond that, fans don't END UP APOLOGIZING TO OTHER FANS FOR FUCKING THEM OVER, SINCE FANS DON'T LICENSE AND DISTRIBUTE MANGA. I mean, here's my overall point. Be a fucking man. Stop chasing the almighty dollar, do a smaller printing for any store that will carry it, and BE A FUCKING MAN. I can't really stress that enough. This is a new fucking century. People have a new outlook and it involves FREE SPEECH and FREE EXPRESSION. You lose some money on this title, so fucking what? I am sick of you double talking shitheads who are all for freedom until something upsets you.
Oh, and before you try to tell me it's not a free expression issue, yeah, there is no active censorship from a government, but the stifling of this release through means of threats, angry letters, and capitalistic urges amounts to the same fucking thing doesn't it? Using a majority rule or a scare tactic or financial posturing to keep something that isn't illegal from being heard is persecution. It doesn't have to be done by the government.
…at this point, I can only assume that you have not seen certain segments later in the series…
I have, I wasn't offended. I still want the books in English. If I was running the company, it'd be sitting on shelves right now. Also, as I understand it, people aren't bound by the mystical codes of Xanthar to BUY ANYTHING ON A MANGA SHELF. Especially wrapped things. Just consider the wrapping an Anti-Jesus barrier and your shopping experience will be all the easier.
Are we really doing people a service if so many of them find the material so utterly offensive?
Am I confused, again, about how this works? Are you going into homes and spraying stencils of Rin, spread eagle, on the walls of would-be buyers? (Sign me up!) No. You're OFFERING a PRODUCT of which PURCHASE IS OPTIONAL. I'm a bit bothered by this part as well: "If only a few unreasonable people happened to be offended, I would take what they say with a grain of salt." And then he says reasonable-minded people were growing in numbers asking it not be released. So, this, yeah, it bothers me. It's REASONABLE to ask that product not be released because they might be offended SHOULD THEY CHOOSE TO PURCHASE AND READ IT? Why does the wildly spinning moral compass of you or some forum goers determine what myself, and those reasonable folk who agree with me, get to read? Do you think TOKYOPOP's upper management are all out morally agreeing with Yubisaki Milk Tea or even all the bath scenes in Ai Yori Aoshi? Doubtful. Why should you have to justify your choices? To use another analogy before moving on… you know those porn shops in your city? Every city has one. Are those people on your forum ok with them? NO?! Should they be shut down? And don't give me the "that's their decision as a business" bullshit. THEIR WHOLE BUSINESS IS OFFENSIVE TO LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE.
One more point before moving on, the protestors are good at organizing. They're good at telling the sheepies to make calm "reasoned" arguments for calling for the, in a retail sense, banning of a book/work of art. Can we organize like that? No. Contrary to popular belief, most of us have lives and jobs and better shit to do that spend 22 hours a day posting about things that offend us. I will point you to this years season finale of The Simpsons for a fair example.
How will this affect the manga market as a whole? My conclusion: I don't know.
Of course, you don't. You're a shitty business man and a coward. I will explain the two possibilities and give an idea of how it might work out. Firstly, and less possible of the two, is that people take a cue from this of the coming shit storm and finish up any titles with questionable content and stick to A-Grade kid loving bullshit. Secondly, and more likely, no one will give a shit. The Super Jesus Warriors (or whatever they call themselves. And don't try to weasel out of it because you're Christian. No on else goes around forcing innocence on other people.) will go to a bigger company, or a company with a boss with more self-esteem than a teenage girl, and they will get the brick wall. They'll "amass" a protest consisting of their members and whoever else they can get to hop over from SuperChristianAnimeDefendersForChrist.com, read 50 people. It will fizzle out after a week, since that is the upper attention span of the internet, and life will go on unchanged.
Seriously… have these kids seen the Yaoi manga out there? DMP isn't running for the hills because of a few whiny blowhards. Here's some business sense for you to pass on to the whiners: "Not every piece of work we release will be for every one of our readers. We feel it is our utmost duty to respect all viewpoints, even if some of our readers do not agree with one another. We further suggest that if you do not enjoy one of our titles, to please let us know so that we can help find other properties in our line-up that you will enjoy. Also, how are high school lesbians cool with you people (KashiMashi)? Are you all stupid?"
Since we plan to release a variety of popular, mainstream titles that are geared not only towards young adults, teens, tweens, and children, the risk that this one title could sabotage the rest of our library did not seem like a sound business decision to me.
I'm noticing adults doesn't appear in that list. And yet you licensed KnJ? I mean really trying to give you at least a LITTLE credit here. You're making it hard for me, man. That first volume doesn't make sort of allusion to the fact that the further series will get "better." In fact, it basically promises that the stakes will be raised as time goes on and Rin gets more… you know… cocky. Haha. Cocky.
What do the vendors think?
Pussy.
Doesn't this suggest that you will cancel other risque' or borderline titles that some people may find offensive?
No, as long as they do not cross that line that Nymphet clearly does, we will not cancel titles at the drop of a hat.
No, it suggests that they'll let the hat float on down until they hit some predetermined number of complaints. Man, I swear, it's people like you who make me want just start my own company. This shit is embarrassing for everyone. Nymphet doesn't cross any line that hasn't be crossed a million times in LARGE CIRCULATION MANGA WEEKLIES IN JAPAN. We're not talking about a book that's being put out in like Moe Paizuri Weekly here. It's in fucking Comic High! That's Seinen stuff people. LATE TEENS AND OLDER MALE COMICS. COME ON! They publish Hitohira in that book! COME ON!
…sorry to disappoint all you sincere manga fans…
I just found this bit funny. Apparently the people who want it and find its cancellation to be a step too far are sincere manga fans. As much as you will call it spin, I'd say that's the most accurate statement in the letter.
But hey, that's it for it. I say you should drop the damn thing now. Drop the license, let someone else pick it up if they want, and just never talk about it again. Stuff like this is a steep slope. I guess, more than maddening, it's depressing. I really wish American companies would get it together. Either learn about what you're bringing over FIRST or bring it over and do it as best you can.
I'm seriously considering just taking out a huge fucking loan and some credit cards and starting a manga publishing house. This stuff is driving me insane and I can't deal with it anymore. I JUST CAN'T PEOPLE! I MEAN HAVE YOU READ THE ENGLISH IKKITOUSEN?! HE HAS RYOFU MAKE PEE STAIN JOKES DURING HER FUCKING DEATH SCENE! WHAT THE HELL!??!? It was so fucking beautiful in the original version. Shiozaki-sama is a god. A GOD! Ah well. Thoughts?
Oh, and as a quick aside for people who bothered reading this far, I will be working on the SUPER SECRET PROJECT again starting soon. Got distracted there for a while. Oh, and I put what I am sure is the offending image up after the jump. Mildly NSFW.
Kodomo no Jikan Canceled Over Online Faggotry
Mon-Sieur BOME Collection vol. 12 - Full Metal Panic Released
DeathNote Site Pre-Open
FujiTV's Miyori no Mori Website Online/Dated
Tales of Symphonia OVA Announced
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May 31st, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Your GAR level has now reached Hei proportions in my book, and if I were female I would desire immediate impregnation for offspring producing purposes, etc. That was wonderfully worded.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Haha, thanks. [sentence removed for lameness, I POST WHERE I WANT!]. I almost feel like apologizing for running my mouth so fucking much. BUT THERE IS LIKE 0 NEWS TODAY! So it works out fine. Still, that'll probably be the end of it from me, unless I get a threatening letter from DeAngelis or something. At which point ISAWN!
May 31st, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Excellent points on all counts. The only thing I disagree with is your comment that 7S should just release the book wherever they can at this point - from a purely practical business perspective, that depends on how the contract works. If they've already spent all the money on the license and they'd just lose it anyway, then yeah, that's a great idea…but if their contract (and sales estimates) say they can recoup more of money by dropping it than selling it in such a limited fashion, then that makes sense.
Though it seems to me like internet-only sales would do real well for them on a title like this. But, hopefully they've dropped it in a fashion that will allow someone with more of a spine to pick it up. Especially since it's being made into an anime now.
May 31st, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Also, wait, what?
>>(Particularly, pages 129-131 in volume three, which are highly problematic.)
The hell's this? SPOILER WARNING, but those pages were one of the most poignant scenes ever. Rin's been feeling like a substitute for her late mother due to Reiji (that dick) calling her name out in his sleep. So she and Aoki end up locked in the school storeroom and they're sharing a sweater because it's cold, and she ends up asking him about his first love and stuff like that, and he tells her, among other things, that he thinks of her as Rin, and not as a substitute, presumably referring to his first love.
Of course the man had to focus on how Rin was straddling Aoki in a presumably indecent position, which isn't taking it out of context, really, DeAngelis just had problems comprehending the text in the bubbles. Six years in Japan? Hell, I learnt enough Japanese in a quarter of that to be able to read what was on the pages, but maybe he was under the impression that they locked themselves in for a quick romp more than anything.
May 31st, 2007 at 4:04 pm
I LOL'd. TL;DR, but QFT. GJ KTHX. Acronyms FTW.
But yes you'll get a threatening letter because of excessive f-word use. That's all they gonna read out that tl;dr entry. F-words oh my GAWD! This is Blasphemy! This is madness!
May 31st, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Even if Seven Seas were to completely relinquish the rights to the manga entirely, I doubt anyone would touch it. It's simply too notorious now, whether that reputation is deserved or not - the bookstore chains wouldn't touch it with a bargepoll now, so there'd be sod all profit.
Yubisaki Milk Tea, on the other hand, no-one other than you has heard of :P
Not that I disagree that there are a lot of dubious statements in this press release - I'd imagine the part about retailers all cancelling their orders is very true, whilst the rest is basically just SS trying to piss off as few people as possible having realised they've now got an impossible-to-release license on their hands. Unfortunately, whilst the mystical codes of Xanthar may not compel people to have to buy manga, retails are also free of them. Theres no point in releasing something if no-one can buy it.
May 31st, 2007 at 4:21 pm
gia:
I totally agree there. But I see that as the honorable thing to do at this point. I'm assuming volume 1 is all but entirely done at this point, so who knows about costs. As it is, I think either of those options are acceptable. Dropping it entirely and revoking the license is good, or dropping it to RightStuf and other web retails is fine too. Amazon will carry just about anything. I mean come on.
I've been saying COME ON a lot.
Owen:
I don't have volume 3 yet (damn three hour trip to the book store… too far!), so thanks for the clarification about what's on those pages. Really, I think those pages capture the real overall tone of the manga's motives than anything else (which is much deeper than he ever lets on). Makes it really rather ironic that he would choose them as the spots that send it over the line.
natsuneko:
I hope I get a letter. That would give me +20 lulz to my harbl. MAJOR DAMAGE!… etc.
kerot:
Firstly, Yubisaki is brilliant and you should read it. GO GO GO! As to the other points you made, I agree there. They've given the anger too much attention and when you acknowledge a bully, he gets more brazen, as it were. So that's really part of my outrage here. They've more or less gone and made KnJ unpublishable in the US. What makes me even more angry is that this girlman seems to BE GLAD that he has more or less killed the series. Thank heaven he saved us from the terrors of KnJ.
Oh, and have I mentioned I love my readers. You guys are awesome. Especially the ones who disagree. MAN I LOVE CONVERSATION! :D
May 31st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
What irks me more than anything else are the people who talk as if Kodomo no Jikan's release would have tarnished manga's reputation, and that its cancellation somehow gives us the priviledge of saving face in the eyes of the public. All popular culture is put under scrutiny. Should we start offering up movies, music, and games of "impure content" as sacrifices just to keep those industries' images clean, too? Give me a break. Of course, for this to even apply, manga would have to be considered popular culture. Chances are little to nothing would have become of this, as stated before.
This is the reality of American business, though. At least they stood by not editing it and are just dropping the license. That would have been the lowest of the low.
I swear someone said all of this before…=P
May 31st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Awesomely worded diatribe there, Randall. I agree with all those points, especially the idiocy of a licensor not reading its own property until DAYS before release! And don't give me the crap about Seven Seas having too many titles to read at once. They publich like one fucking volume a month! It takes them a year between licensing a title and even releasing it. And the whole industry will probably self-censorship itself after this, at least for a while. Maybe we should change it to "can't show that in a Japanese manga IN AMERICA."
May 31st, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Suck news, I had my copy preordered even :(
But while this is really disappointing, he does bring up one good point…up until now there really only been positive Big Media coverage of the huge growth in popularity of manga (that I've seen). The risk of one of the Big Media networks picking up the story to sensationalize it (facts they don't research, reporting only one side of the story, etc.) into a huge "Seven Seas Releases Pedo Manga!!!" headline would suck way more for the company and the manga industry in general than what's happening with this decision.
That's all speculation, but a real risk in this case. It being cancelled forever in English still sucks and all that, yes!!!!!!
May 31st, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Along the lines of Homely Tadpole, I feel offended that some "fans" (oh hello ANN) or as Randall puts it, Amerifags seem to think that the Eng Industry has now evaded The Second Crisis, ie. manhunt from the public media when KnJ wasn't released. As if it would affect real fans in anyway, just keep it to yourself. "Oh noes, here goes the last public credibility I ever had". As if I'd care about public representation, you couldn't sniff of my hobbies from outward glance anyway. Expect from glasses and having pc-hardware components in keychain and mostly black casual clothing.
It's like come on, this genre is one of the fucking corner pillars in this industry, like or not, we don't want to read stories crafted for teenagers all the time, we want something geared toward mature/young adult audience too. Faggots like Answerman are too narrow-minded to even think "bawww, I might seriously be labeled weirdo in the eyes of public", as if you weren't already, dick, as majority of public all over the world still sees animation = only for kids.
And if SS would have just handed it over to online retailers and maybe shrink-wrapped it for "specialty" stores, yeah, it would have sold pretty good. But now I take it they have already paid for the license and are just sitting on it. Talk about wasted investments & intentions.
And I presume they aren't letting the license go back for someone else to test their manliness who might have the balls to cope with awesomeness that is KnJ. Same like with World Embryo that Tokyopop presumably has the license to as they sent C&D e-mail to the only scanlation group doing it last autumn (Maximum7). But no, I can't find it anywhere from their horrible, retina burning, cancer inducing site that they have even intention to release it. Same with Spiral, crappy motherfuckers. That's why I own the raws for W.Embryo, because the Eng publishers seem to be more carefree about result or just girly dicks about their releases/licenses.
I still buy the unfinished series from few Eng publishers but in the course of last 5 years, I have no high hopes that the Eng industry will steer of from the downward spiral to shitter. Yeah there are few titles that get handled well and then there are the ones that publisher decided to do shoddy work and just want to get it off from their hands. Typos, shitty cleaning work (Tokyopop has even kanji lines protruding on some speech bubbles), translation errors, odd wording, list goes on. Come on, you have a fucking heard word proof-reading? Even most scanlators do better work with their titles than that and some are even wizards when it comes to cleaning shitty bend/gutter shadowed dual-page raws.
And yeah, as Randall said, go test yourself with Yubisaki Milk Tea, it's actually fun to see that there are some parts of publishing in English that hasn't bend under outsiders will or have the balls to treat it in the way it deserves to be released. And that is one thing I raise my hat to Tokyopop, actually doing good work and going by the "unedited, non-mirrored, the way it was published originally".
And final words, I have always thought English Industry just as a stepping stone into the original waters, where it all comes from. Sad fact is that the English Industry is just mining on the tip of ice-berg, nothing more, they take the cream from the top of the cake with "good" work and "dedication" the titles woould deserve and still under the radar slip most of the great titles.
Aww geez, another long rant but still, fun to do it. Signing off ->
May 31st, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Wonderfully worded. You said everything better than I could've, and now when people ask me why I am pissed about this, I am totally gonna link them to you.
Would it be too forward of me to inquire what this super secret project is, or should I guess (hope?) based on the context?
May 31st, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Chronos:
That was a good reply, I think. Quality stuff. And I really think all of this helps speak to the point I've been trying to get across: MANGA AND ANIME AREN'T POPULAR IN AMERICA. How you personally define popular can be an issue, but generally, when the most popular site is getting 1/10 the hits of the nearest competing game site, it's looking bad. And now we are CANCELING manga that run in major magazines in Japan. Hell, they ran NHK ni Youkoso in Shounen Ace. That's pretty risque.
betty:
Thanks for the kind words. And as to the super secret project, I can't talk about it on the site yet (even though I am the first to actively hate companies who keep shit all close to their chest). Largely because there is WAY too long to go in the development process, so I don't want people being all like "WHERE THE FUCK IS IT?! IDIOT!" As soon as I make some headway, I will be opening it up for beta testing and things like that. If you'd like to hear more about SUPER SECRET PROJECT, please drop me a line through the contact page or on AIM (digiwombat).
Also, feel free to guess all you like. I SHAN'T CONFIRM OR DENY PUBLICLY THOUGH!
May 31st, 2007 at 11:12 pm
DigiKerot:
/Yubisaki Milk Tea, on the other hand, no-one other than you has heard of :P/
Not so. I love that manga to bits. I'm with Randall- GO BUY IT. Even if you're not so into the pervier aspects, it's actually got a lot of heart and mind in it.
Randall:
I shan't try to figure out what your SUPER SECRET PROJECT is, but when do we get to find out? ;)
June 1st, 2007 at 3:04 am
Hmmm, well, I got a lot of design work done tonight. Well, not a lot. A little. Not a ton. So that's out of the way. One really kick ass feature is done and waiting to be wrapped in the layout, when I finish that. And otherwise, it's really a lot of time being spent on UI/usability. Those things are FIRST PRIORITY in anything I do. I'm trying to take key shortcomings from similar products and avoid them. I'll of course be adding in my own shit. It will of course carry the typical ikimashou attitude. Oh, and of course it will all tie into current user accounts and things like that. Lots of awesome convergences. REALLY COOL STUFF PLANNED, DAMNIT!
Hopefully I didn't give too much away. I mean, really, I will be full disclosure when I can, but right now it is SO far from even being HALF of what it will be that I don't want to have people get ideas before I blast the awesome down their throats.
Man, I really hope I didn't give too much away. Probably did though.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:27 am
While I agree that he caved to pressure, isn't part of free speech not publishing something you don't want to be associated with? To me it looks like his actions are more due to pressure than they are due to realizing the material in later volumes wasn't something he wanted to publish. Still, I'm okay with a private institution not wanting to publish something. It's their right, pretty much regardless of what reason. But it's amusing how you call him an asshat. Good reading. The way SS handled this was poor.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:42 am
[…] link of Nymphet Ever. Hopefully. Simon Jones points us to Ikimashou.net. (There you go, all the frustration and angst I've been hearing in the last few days […]
June 1st, 2007 at 10:48 am
rats:
That is a great point. And really, I tend to agree to an extent. But I am also for culpability when it comes to your own bad decisions. I mean, it's not like they licensed it, researched it, and then decided that they'd made a mistake either shortly after or at least before promising the volume. They had hyped the series as EXACTLY what it is, and allowed preorders to be taken. So, really I am just wondering at what point you have a responsibility to your customers.
I mean, pulling the rug out from under people who have already laid their money on the proverbial barrel head seems like a violation of what I consider to be good business ethics.
I guess my answer to your first questions is "why license something you don't want to be associated with?" It's not like he just willy-nilly did this. It's been on their site for like… a year. He had time to research it without letting things go so far as they did. Or at least as LONG as they did. You wait until fans of the series are basically foaming at the mouth for the release (after FOREVER) then you pull it while at the same time saying that people who were going to buy your product are lewd individuals who enjoy material that is indefensible and wholly inappropriate for America.
I don't know. I guess my outrage is sort of like the Google China blocking scandal or the Digg HD-DVD issue. Google and Digg both owned the data they gave out/blocked but it didn't stop people from getting mad. And I feel the people justified, just as the companies were justified in their own way in the actions they took.
Ahhh, I need to post something fun now.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:53 am
I do agree with the whole sentiment of this arguement: Which is that Seven Seas chickened out of releasing this, and although I am not a fan of this type of title, It should have been published if it was licensed. There were ways to get around this problem, like shrinkwrapping or direct sales….
And, since they chickened out(Causing us fans great grief in the process), I find it hard to be able to read any of their titles. I wanted to check out He is My Master, but I dunno if I should now…
@Randall-can't wait to see this project you are working on^_^.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Nice points. And I agree with you on them.
But if there is one thing that rules this world then it is money, I wouldn´t be suprised if it were a lot of money involved in this…
Otherwise I find no reason. Hell what do they do over there???
June 1st, 2007 at 5:06 pm
You people are all gigantic sickos. He doesn't want to release it because the backlash from consumers and retailers would be horrific, his business would be crippled. Stop trying to turn a disgusting pedophile masturbation comic into something meaningful or worthy of praise– because it's not.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:47 pm
I keep hearing the pedophile thing come up. Let me just toss this out there. I enjoy SOME loli. I absolutely loathe real children. Loathe the very sight of them. The idea of seeing one even naked disgusts me. Likewise, I think anyone who would touch or condone touching children should get what's coming to them. While most fans of 2D understand the idea of holding separate standards for 2D and 3D fetishes, I don't expect the general populace to really follow along. That means you, Sean. I wrote AT GREAT LENGTH about this stuff on Oniichan no Ecchi, which you likely didn't read. I won't bother reciting it here.
Also, let's put a cap on this idea that it's not meaningful or worth of praise. What you mean to say is that YOU DON'T LIKE IT and think that it's vile and all that good stuff. We've heard your position on this already.
Is it pedo spank bait? Not especially. Maybe look at any of the KnJ doujin. You will see a fairly bold line painted there.
But moving along to the pedo argument. Last time I checked, those laws were in place to protect the REAL CHILDREN. Moreover, what of characters in young bodies who are actually old? Evangeline from Negima is hundreds of years old, and yet she is in an 11 year old body. Certainly, were she real, she should have lived long enough to make decisions about whom she would like to fuck. Or how about just young looking girls who are legal. Can't they sleep with who they want, even if the guy just wants their young looking body? There's a reason those sorts of things aren't illegal. No child is harmed in the process as there are no children present in the process. If you could be so kind as to point out who is being protected by the non-release of this manga, I'll cede my point. You won't find them though. What you will find is that occurrences of rape DECLINE in areas where ACCESS TO PORNOGRAPHY INCREASES. Scientific studies just fuck up all that accusatory fervor.
Ah well, I'm done. Just figured I'd write that out for the benefit of that chanfag who seemed to think children were somehow being harmed by loli works. We have laws in place for people who harm real children. Let's leave the thought crimes to the literary classics.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:03 pm
Point is, Randall, it's a comic about a sexualized 3rd grader. A comic about a sexualized child will get nothing but bad press and very angry people knocking at Seven Sea's door. It wasn't a matter of censorship to cancel the comic, it was a matter of making sure his business is around in a year.
Meanwhile, you guys should realize that the world extends beyond your creepy little corner of fandom and stop acting like you're so oppressed and violated just because the cancellation of this gross comic gave you guys a bad case of pedo blue balls. This comic would be bad for anime fandom and bad for Seven Sea's, suck it up.
June 1st, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Well, one day the very angry people are going to have to come to grips with the fact that our TINY CORNER of the fandom consists of an extremely large market share in the country where this stuff comes from. Very large, in fact.
At also seems curious to me that you see it as alright to insist that this "gross" comic be stripped from shelves. I'm wondering what right you people think you have to insist that others not be able to purchase this book. Do you have to purchase it? No. Do you have to even flip through it? No. Why can't I read it? And not just because you don't want me to. Give me a good reason why you went out of your way to stop something from being released in a format I can easily access. I mean, fuck, I don't have to justify myself to you even though I have. Why don't you justify where you get off telling me what I can read?
And don't you hide behind that "I was expressing my opinion to a retailer." You know what? I fucking HATE Burger King fries, but I don't get my prayer circle together to go financially threaten Burger King into stopping their sale. Cop outs NOT ACCEPTED. :D
June 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
This is just what Sean here was talking about– this persecution complex, this bizarre idea that the only reason anyone could possibly not want to see comics featuring drawings of little girls having sex with people or things must be that they are religious zealots who want to do away with free speech, burn down the libraries and schools, make you move out of your parents' houses, etc.
But this is actually beside the point. I personally don't care what you do with your time. Really. Thing is, I still think it was a fair decision on their part. There are two reasons this decision was / could have been made: PR and the personal discretion of Mr. Jason DeAngelis. Believe it or not, you do not have a "right" to read something. You have a right to free speech, and a right to enjoy a life without the government interfering with that free speech. You do not have the right to determine what others want to do with their free speech. This is not a case of the government stepping in and telling you you're not allowed to buy and/or masturbate to Japanese drawings of little children, this is a case of a man deciding that he personally does not want to support something or, much more likely, that he personally does not want his business to take the flak for being seen for supporting it.
And there is the rub. This is is the kind of decision people in the business world often have to make every day. Sometimes they lose customers, sometimes they gain them, but they always try to do what's best for their company, and in this case that means not distributing something that could put their asses (or maybe just ass) in the fire.
Look, let me put it like this. It's a crying shame that you won't get to see this particular piece of lolicon on the shelves any time soon, really I'm sure it is, but it's not a case of evil inbred God-worshipping corn-growing Midwesterners out to separate you from your precious manga any more than an auto company's decision to cease manufacture of a perfectly good car is all thanks to Greenpeace and those gosh-darned sun-worshipping eco-terrorist Californian moonbats. When you're running your own business, you can decide how you want to do things, who you want to ignore, and at what cost. Until then, drop the sense of entitlement.
Incidentally, how in the world is that "mildly" NSFW? Do you people even know what the W stands for, or what would and wouldn't be S for it?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:29 pm
It's another of those weird statements, man. I'm type casting the sort of people who start marches over sexual content, yet I, and everyone who agrees with me for whatever reason, is a chronic masturbator who lives with their parents and has likely been convicted of this or that child related offense.
Aside from that, I am not saying DeAngelis is violating anyones free speech or free expression. I'm saying that the threat generated by the campaigning of YOU IDIOT CHRISTIAN REPUBLICANS WHO I GUESS I THINK ARE ALL IN THE MIDWEST stifled his ability to really do anything about it. You write a letter to Borders about your outrage at boobies in this country and shit flies off store shelves unless a company is big enough to say "Hey, no." Does Seven Seas have that luxury? No.
Oh, oh, and let me just qualify for you, since your versing in the subject is likely slim. Kodomo no Jikan ain't a jerkin' manga. It's a readin' manga. You can tell because there isn't a round of sexual intercourse in every chapter.
Also, a girl wrote this. Is that skipping by everyone? I mean… wow. You people are more sensitive than a nerdy Japanese woman? I'd be upset.
But really, on to the main reason I am replying here now instead of later.
I have a REALLY HARD TIME believing that DeAngelis and everyone at Seven Seas sat on the KnJ license for NEARLY A YEAR (Announced at AX06 http://www.chupatz.com/kareha/kareha.pl/1135222224/22-) without realizing the content of the book. If that's the care, then I really hope his company goes under. It's pretty grossly irresponsible for a company owner to have active license for that book for as long as he did without so much as looking at it. It seems pretty evident that he never touched the fucking book. The first nudity pops up in CHAPTER FOUR OF VOLUME ONE. That's like… ~50 pages you only have to FLIP through to see the stuff. Come the fuck on people. Stop acting like I am picking on a guy who was UTTERLY CLUELESS ABOUT this stuff. By his own admission he lived in japan for 6 years and he knows what mainstream is over there, and this is it. I'm willing to bet dollars to pesos that Jason knew exactly what he licensed… well… that or Seven Seas has bigger problems than whiny internet idiots.
And that picture is mildly NSFW for this site. If you don't like it, get a different job or find somewhere that NSFW means what you think it should. The picture has no nipples showing, and is roughly on par with many of the figures I mark NSFW. And hey, if thongs are not work safe, I don't even mark those, so watch out. Of course, nudity doesn't send me off the handle like some people, so I can understand the sort of sliding scale on that.
Man, this is sort of tiring. I wonder if I've covered everything yet. If I don't reply to anything else for a while, it's because I'm off coding a SWEET ASS NEW FEATURE that should be done by Monday… or later this weekend. Whichever.
June 1st, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Believe it or not, the fact that I do not run a site about drawings of little girls / write to great lengths about the breathtaking depth of Oniichan no Ecchi / use an Ichigo Mashimoro avatar does not mean that I am poorly versed in the subject, nor does the fact that I personally happen to understand the fundamentals of business.
NSFW is a term relative to a job, not to a site. For example: a site that contains pornography could not claim an image with only single penetration was "mildly NSFW for this site". NSFW is NSFW is NSFW. Job-dependent, sure, but… I must say, I envy anyone who has a job where they wouldn't get in hot water with their boss for browsing anime blogs during work hours, period, much less one with a barely-non-pornographic drawing of a little girl.
So then, off of the metadrama and onto the drama. You understand that Seven Seas had the license for some time, and do not understand why they would pull it at the last moment like this. Yes? If you read his letters and read between the lines (even you have figured out that he surely must have known what was inside), or at least followed the Internet Drama(R) of the last couple of weeks, you would notice something: DeAngelis was not aware this would be the problem that it apparently is, even for the fan community. My guess is that it's easy to lose your sense of what parts of the American public will and will not raise a stink about when you work in the manga publishing industry.
So think about how this works out. DeAngelis sends a letter saying there's nothing wrong with it. As a thousand voices shout out "that's right", another hundred go "what the hell is wrong with you". The nice people at Seven Seas all realize that if it's a problem for a members of their target market, they will face hell if any of this drama gets to the mainstream or semi-mainstream media, or even to booksellers. They decide it's not worth the risk of screwing up their business over a single product, DeAngelis lies and says he never knew what was inside it, they back out quietly, you fill up a screen or two and overuse the bold tag (for shame).
It's not a happy end, I guess, but it's not one that merits blug posts filled with Internet Rage(R). You can yell at people for not accepting it / you for what it is / you folks are, but that won't go anywhere, because 1. people are pretty hard set about this kind of thing and 2. you're doing it somewhere where you are mostly preaching to the choir (incidentally, you haven't thanked me yet for introducing an opposing opinion!). You can yell at DeAngelis or Seven Seas for not publishing, but really it looks like they didn't know that the stuff they were looking at would be that much of a problem for some people, and then they panicked and/or made a sensible business decision.. so you're really yelling at people for probably living to publish another day. You can yell at Seven Seas for not knowing that people cared that much, but then it seems you weren't aware people outside the Christian right cared either. Or you can just yell to vent. Is this all this is?
By the way, since you complained about my generalization (not "type casting"– you're close, but that's something a little different): what DO you do for a living?
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:25 am
Well, I'll gladly thank you for this follow up post. It's a lot more level than the first one, which seemed a lot more in the interests of casting aspersions (which we'll chalk up to hyperbole, since I'm certainly guilty of such).
Really, I think the idea of yelling to vent sort of sums up what I know to be the overall outcome of the situation. DeAngelis runs his company in a way that I find to be cowardly, and that's the only real point I have to make. Yeah, it's my opinion. That's all it is. Do I think he will change his policy? No. Do I want him to? Yes.
Honestly, I wasn't thinking about whether or not I was preaching to the choir or not. I've always shot my blog off in a random direction if the mood struck.
One thing I do recognize is that he made his first mistake by pretending to give a shit what naysayers want. They latch on to ANYTHING negative. Just look at the swell in complaints when Tenjou Tenge had the edits addressed. Of course, then the status quo was returned to normal when the company goes back to ignoring people who disagreed with their decision. Same as they were from volumes 2 up until that interview.
Also, having a fairly large number of international visitors, lambasting the American market is a bit of a given here. Well, in this case it was a bit more direct. I was really annoyed with this since I've been waiting on it since it missed the 12/06 initial run date. And on top of it, no one else seemed all that pissed. They all seemed concerned with putting forth either their "too cool for school" shit or they said nothing or they stuck up some mildly disappointed thing. I fucking LOVE this manga. It was really a step towards the deeper otaku books that get released in Japan. It made me, ALMOST, momentarily proud of the market. I mean, I am trying to hold out hope for them between dubs and editings and all these things I really hate. They're not making it easy.
As for what I do for a living, I'm currently a Software Development Consultant. That basically boils down to me visting with our clients, hearing what they want, being annoyed at their shock at the relatively low price (fucking location), and then programming it for them. It's a small group, but hey, we're expanding. I might end up in a more management position soon. Possibly partner. Who knows. All that shit's not really important, I guess. Haha. Anyway, I consider myself to be successful thus far. I don't drive a super nice car. I sort of have a decent amount of debt from before I got the job, and blah blah blah.
I probably missed some talking points. Sorry about that. I'm working on some stuff for ikiKOYOMI (might get it done tonight, WOO!) so I can get back to SUPER SECRET PROJECT!
Also, if you get all poetic, I'd say typecasting sort of works. Haha. THE WORLD IS A STAGE! OH SHI-!
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:33 am
@ Sean
"This comic would be bad for anime fandom and bad for Seven Sea's, suck it up."
Sorry for bargin in but I have to reply to this.
Sure, it´s bad for Seven Sea´s, but that is basically all that it is bad for, the company. But if I remember correctly Seven Sea´s also distrubiate Aoi House, not children in there but guys forced to do nasty stuff(in meaning, not visual). How much less of a "bad for anime fandom" is this?
Or "He is my master" where a young rich kid hires a couple of small girls to be maids and in secret takes photos of them in very erotic poses? Isn´t this also something that would "be bad for anime fandom"?
Where do you draw the line for "acceptable and not"?
And at one more thought, it´s not for real, why bother what shows up in a comic?
If it´s against the law then ok, I won´t say anything, but otherwise I´m not able to see where the harm is. Not with what they already have licensed and made public.
For a quick solution, have them sell the license and have some other company print it. They save their image and the ones who want the manga will get it.
June 4th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Great post. So well said, and nobody's throwing around the apocalypse like over in the ANN forums. I completely agree with all that was said, and I am glad to see fans speaking in a civilized manner here. I think I've found my new news source.
June 4th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I'm glad you like the place. :D
It's a pretty exciting time too, what with all the super secret features just around the corner and everything like that. I am totally running out of room for my tabs at the top though. It could get complicated. :D
June 5th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
I still haven't figured out why we're meant to be so angry. I read some of it and it really has no positive aspects. The several people I know who like it are all pedophiles, which probably is a successful market but isn't actually a good thing about Japan. It's well known that ZAC BERTSCHY, THE ANSWERMAN is very angry about everything, but just because it isn't actually child porn doesn't mean it's much good as anything else.
June 5th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Still, this is confusing to me. YOU personally don't like it. I'm still not hearing why you think you should have a say in what people can buy. If thise argument was about violent video games, the argument is the same. Even though it's violence, it's not REAL violence. Who is the game hurting exactly? Why should anyone be able to tell me what I can and can't buy?
And as for the people you know liking it being pedophiles… wow, that's a bit disturbing. You associate with pedophiles? I mean, I like it, I'm not a pedo. My ADULT girlfriend likes it, she's not a pedo. Most of my friends like it, or otherwise don't care, and I don't know any of them to be pedophiles.
Or maybe we should broaden the range. Do you know people who are actively breaking laws? Are they downloading child porn or touching girls? because we have laws in place to cover that shit, and they don't include books with drawings in them. And if they're pedophiles who are breaking no law, who is to say they shouldn't be allowed to feel however they want? As long as no child is harmed or exploited in the process. We're trying to prosecute thought to protect THEM PRECIOUS BABIES and that's not the way to go about it. As much as people might not like it, we have to wait until someone is hurt to call it a crime. Or at least until the intent is so completely clear that that it's undeniable. And that's fine by me. Hang the fuckers once you have them dead to rights. I'll bring the noose. But wait until you have proper proof to do it. And KnJ certainly isn't proof of shit… well, or there are a lot of Japanese guys violating age of consent laws by looking at naughty drawings.
Just for anyone who is too slow to get that, pedophiles who are beyond the shadow of a doubt either doing something wrong or planning to (watch To Catch a Predator), I'm all for shooting them on sight. But I do insist that DRAWINGS do not fall into the category of "humans" (and if they do, please let me know where I can go to see one, alive, on display) and as such are just as protected as my ability to call DeAngelis a cockmuncher.
Also, I really wish I could stress this, KnJ is not a spank volume. Hell, if it is, it's the lamest spank mag to come out of Japan in a while.
June 6th, 2007 at 10:52 am
On the Internet, sure I do. It's nearly the entire population of some 4chan boards, I'm sure. Pretend I said lolicons if you want. One example of this would be at least one of the guys translating it now…
Does it have any other jokes than Rin's panties falling off? I think I read a chapter or two and they weren't in evidence.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Actually, you should read his (DeAgiles) post on the boards (on HiMM):
"Actually, He Is My Master would not be a problem because it doesn't have scenes that show and allude to pedophilia.
Nymphet's problem was very specifically due to the disturbing sexual relationship between a teacher and an eight year old student. We won't be publishing any titles that cross that line. The fact that she's eight and he's a teacher makes it all the more difficult to justify.
We don't have a problem with most sexual content or fanservice. Nymphet was offensive for good reason, and trying to defend it is a losing battle. Each volume gets progressively further into pedophilia territory.
If something we publish is offensive to someone and they want us to cancel the title, they better have a damn good reason on their side. In this one case, there was a good reason to cancel Nymphet."
I mean, did he actually LOOK beyond the concept, or was he blinded by the debate?!!
June 7th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
HiMM is ALL about the guy wanting to sex up both of them. One of which is a middle schooler (a middle schooler DRAWING, of course).
It's like, I guess it goes back to this, should we start discussing the banning of Lolita because it talks about illicit relationships? How about any of the books on the subject of the old ages, where marrying and boning a child were common practice?
Or is it the pictures that's bothering DeAngelis? Are we to say art can only take one medium and still be acceptable? Pictures AND words is TOO MUCH?
If DeAngelis wants a fair argument to the problem, I've written about a jillion words here defending anything that's can throw out. I'm hard pressed to believe that DeAngelis is properly separating fact and fiction. And that's really the basis for it. I don't buy books I like based on the morality of the people putting them out. Do you think any publisher who has published Lolita condones child sex?
I think that's the problem, at a base. There seems to be this idea that anime and manga are either for kids, or that there is no such thing as lolicon. Or that people should have a say in what can be published and what can't. DeAngelis should just admit that he wouldn't be willing to HEAR any decent argument for why KnJ should published. Hell, people spoke with their wallets when they preordered it.
I can't argue that DeAngelis made a decision for his company. That's valid. I can't abide, however, him sitting on the license for a year and acting like there was some sudden jump to the content he described. If I am remembering my CRAZY JAPANESE PICTURE WORDS properly, volume three was not the first instance of Aoki allowing himself to be sexed at. And that being enough to block the release just points to that same sort of society that's allowed the FCC to trample free speech for a long time now.
I just want to know, still, why can I purchase it? Why do people that find it objectionable have to interfere with my enjoyment? How would they feel if I bitched about all the blood in Naruto and they edited it ou… oh wait. Ok, let me try again. What if I bitched about how boring Naruto got after the ninja trails and Viz decided to just drop the manga (because me and 50 of my extremely free time heavy friends bitched at them from every angle), but their cross licensing deal kept anyone else from getting it? What if they REALLY loved Naruto and COULD read scanslations, or the original, but just want the physical book in English, because maybe their Japanese isn't up to snuff? The fucking internet would break, that's what would happen.
And still, I'm bothered by the pedophilia thing. I know I keep saying it, but I just don't really understand the correlation. Do I have to enjoy boned by chick with a strap-on to enjoy drawings of that? There's a disconnect that I think is ignored there. I mean, maybe people just have a problem with noodie boobies or something. Lots of people. And they cry at night.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
BTW, Read his blog post:
http://gomanga.com/blog/01.php
What the HELL is his problem…
June 8th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Yeah, I read that a few days ago. I'm really a bit annoyed with how smug he is about the whole thing.
He just fucked the bulk of the hardcore community and he thinks what we want in a more personal touch?
But then, if you read the post, I'd say he makes it fairly clear that he wants no part of the hardcore community in his company.
Still, after it all, I think Watashiya-sensei said it best herself: "I wondered, what was so problematic in volume 2, but not in volume 1?"
While DeAngelis will claim ignorance by pointing to volume 3, I feel that she'd ask the same question. Ah well.
Someone donate me $10k so I can start up a manga company. I'm assuming that will do it.
Haha.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
[…] Well, it looks like Seven Seas isn't half the company I had thought they were. I am about to get mean about this. Here goes. DeAngelis, you're a pussy. You're a punk bitch pussy who can't stand up for any sort of freedom. Oh yeah, Tom's of Finland is fine for print, TOKYOPOP has the balls print Yubisaki Milk Tea and NHK ni Youkoso unedited, but a man who spends his days mocking real manga with fan fiction and bitching about artists being censored by American companies won't stand up and put out something mildly controversial. Man, what a fucking joke. Kodomo no Jikan is hilarious and fun. But no, the Christian Anime Forum crew came rolling in, and you dropped it. (Also, the other rant jigger is here.) […]
June 8th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Ya know, I was going to give them a benefit of a doubt, I was sorta interested in HiMM, However, after hearing him basically call the fans of this series, as well as the publishers, and based on his previous "delay" letter, the Japanese people IN GENERAL, I think I'll have to sit this one out. Seriously, he should have stayed with the buisiness reasons, but THIS, where THE PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY starts basically saying "we don't want your business, sickos", I have to make a statement…
They lost a few sales…
June 8th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
OOps, I meant to add "… a bunch of perverts" to the end of …IN GENERAL…", but I can't edit my posts.:(
June 8th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Whats worse, Adam Arnold posted THIS on the board:
"I think I should post the scene of Rin drinking from a condom to end this argument, but I won't."
WTF, WHAT VERSION WAS HE READING, an ero-doujishi? or was he deliberately misrepresenting a scene in Volume 2?
On an AoD board (when someone commented on physical vs mental arousal):
""No, your honor, I was just aroused, I'm not attracted to Childen…""
WOW, it looks like HE didn't notice Aoki's lack of interest from the other volumes, or from other chapters. Outside of some physical contact, HE IS NEVER AROUSED BY HER, maybe embarrassed, but not aroused.
I'm seriously getting more and more pissed at SS, They seem to be going to new lows in an attempt to justify there decision. I take back much of what I said on there boards (as "LordShade") when I was defending them. They are COMPLETE cowards, who probably had there views tainted by the complainers…
I hope they stop this idiocy, but I kind of doubt it…